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[luiscypher]

No religious leader has the right to FORBID it under the law.

They have every right to do whatever they can within the law to prevent it.

[KK]

@luis:
Good point. I agree. My mistake using the wrong vocabulary.

[luiscypher]

I was already pretty positive we were on the same page here 

[LT]

that's fine... but if you're going to take that tack, you have to agree with me that All Muslims are guilty of terrorism because it's consistient with the Koran.

No I don't, because that has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand - I'm condemning The Catholic Church for something that The Catholic Church did as well as things it has done in the past.  I'm not condemning Catholics at all, I'm just suggesting that they'd be better off without a corrupt Church that would force a rape victim to carry twins to term at great risk to her own life.

[luiscypher]

I'm just suggesting that they'd be better off without a corrupt Church that would force a rape victim to carry twins to term at great risk to her own life.

Two things: nothing changes if the church is corrupt or not.  Makes no difference to this at all.  Secondly, the church isn't forcing anyone to do anything at all.  That's the part you donn't seem to undersrtand.

I'll add this: Islam demands all "Idolitors" be killed on sight by all muslims. (Those are people "not of the book") and that it is no sin to kill a Christian or a Jew... but it's also no sin not to, you can let them live and them as slaves if you want...

That IS ISLAM!  That is not RADICAL ISLAM, it is ISLAM at its foundation.

I love it how people go off about "Waaaah, them evil nasty catholics did such and such... waaaah!"

Meanwhile, the Islamopigs rape little girls, blow up little girls, shoot little girls down in the street with impunity, and it's OUR FAULT because of OUR POLICIES... whatever the fuck that means... oh, and it's the CHRISTIAN's fault because of the CRUSADES!  (Which was a response to an ISLAMOPIG INVASION, by the way) In any event, it's never the ISLAMOPIG's fault!

So I'm going to blame something on them: It's the ISLAMOPIG's fault this girl got raped and that she got excommunicated.  It's because of their ISLAMOPIG POLICIES! 

[LT]

Your attempts to divert the discussion show the weakness in your own argument.  I'm not a fan of Islam's oppressiveness either, but that has nothing to do with the Catholic Church excommunicating this girl and her mother for doing something for the protection and benefit of a 9 year old rape victim.

[luiscypher]

they were excommunicated for the MURDER of the child the 9 year old girl was carrying.

That's the point!

[KK]

I suppose that is Catholizism at its foundation.

A 9yr old rape victim has to bear kids at the risk of her life. If she doesn't it's murder. That's the fact.
The reasoning behind it, is actually quite simple: Catholizism is based on suffering. If the girl suffers and dies, then that's what it's all about. So, if she chose an abortion, she chose not to suffer and die. And if you're Catholic, you can't have it that easy. You never choose the way that doesn't hurt yourself the most, because... well... that's not how it's supposed to work. So if you do, you have to be punished.

I know that's polemic. Had to vent, though, for other reasons.

[LT]

they were excommunicated for the MURDER of the child the 9 year old girl was carrying.

That's the point!

No, the point is that the girl was raped and that it was unreasonable for anyone to expect such a young girl to carry twins to term.  Well that and that the Catholic Church is unreasonable.

[t'Sade]

A note for your moderator: Please keep the passion down a little. I like the conversation, I don't like "Islamopigs".

Now, from "me": I have a problem with any organization, be it religious or bureaucratic, that does things because the rules say so, not because it is right. People don't think, but they also retreat in "the book told me too".

I know quite a lot of Islams who are wonderful, beautiful people. The problem is, the murderers and like are the ones that get the news, get the attention. Same with Christianity. We hear about the priests fucking little boys, but for everyone one that does, there is probably a couple hundred that don't.

If you read about Mother Teresa, it is kind of scary since she was obsessed with suffering.

[luiscypher]

Okay, they're followers of a pedophile, and that justifies Pedophelia.  They're encouraged to lie and deceive as a sacrament.  Killing a non-muslim is never a sin (Chapter 5, Verse 32 of the Koran makes that very clear).  What do you want me to call them?

[t'Sade]

Okay, they're followers of a pedophile, and that justifies Pedophelia.  They're encouraged to lie and deceive as a sacrament.  Killing a non-muslim is never a sin (Chapter 5, Verse 32 of the Koran makes that very clear).  What do you want me to call them?

Islamic.

[KK]

As t'sade mentioned already:
People who believe or consider anything an old book "says" as "the only truth", have a serious problem. Especially if they take it literally.

As with any book, I think also with the Bible and the Koran you have to put them in the politically and social context and situations at the time. And think about whether what's written there still applies nowadays in the same context or if it has to be interpreted differently because of different social/political context today. And that is, of course, the one thing fundamentalist worshippers can't and won't do, because that renders the "truth" in there as relative and not absolute.

Fortunately, most people are not fundamentalists. So even if the Koran says that killing a non-muslim is not a sin (and frankly I have no idea if that is really written in the Koran, or an interpretation), I am pretty sure most people of Islamic belief wouldn't accept that point of view today.

Personally, I have long since accepted only one "religion": the constitution. Made by people, to protect themselves from the govt and (indirectly) each other. Subject to change only if a large majority of people support the change and the change makes sense and improves the protection. Okay, it may not always work out so perfectly as intended, but it's still our best shot at peace and freedom for everyone.