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Author Topic: PGP and the 5th Amendment  (Read 736 times)

t'Sade

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PGP and the 5th Amendment
« on: December 27, 2007, 06:00:43 PM »

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/12/pgp_and_the_5th.html
http://www.news.com/8301-13578_3-9834495-38.html?tag=nefd.blgs

There is an interesting law on the books that says you must hand over your encryption keys if the authorities demand it. The article above talks about being forced to hand over the keys would be violating the 5th amendment.

Naturally, this isn't the final word and probably won't be. But, for the time being, things had started to filter up.

I use PGP quite heavily. I like the program behind it, I trust the system, and I use it to digitally sign my emails. I also use it to encrypt emails to people, but not enough of those I talk to actually use it. If they did, I'd encrypt everything. Mainly because it no one else' business.
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LT

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Re: PGP and the 5th Amendment
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2008, 11:58:07 PM »

I tend to be with the pro-privacy people on this.  To me, those border guards shouldn't have been able to access information on the computer to begin with.  All they should've been able to do is check to make sure that it isn't some kind of bomb or something.  Though without knowing more we don't know what they used as probable cause to perform the search to begin with.
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KK

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Re: PGP and the 5th Amendment
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2008, 02:31:46 AM »

Wow. Interesting that the legal community even talk about this.
I don't see where the problem is.

One of the most basic rules is that a suspect does not have to self-incriminate. He cannot be forced to give away information that would cause him harm. If giving away his PGP key might do that, then that's it. End of story. I don't see how this could be compared to handing over a "phyical key". A passcode is clearly non-physical, therefore "information". I am surprised that this actually had to be decided by a judge. This should be something any DA should have learned in the first 2 hours of their penal processual law course. At least, that's the case in Germany. 

As a sidenote: I am also surprised that a suspect could be compelled to hand over physical objects in the USA. In Germany, this also falls under self-incrimination. The reason why it surprises me is that, if a suspect could be forced to hand over objects to incriminate him, why do we need things like search warrants? Why not simply walk up to the suspect and detain him until he hands over the evidence? It would save the cops a lot of time searching thru his stuff. I hope that makes the absurdity of  this clear.  ;)

Another sidenote: The comparison to a suspect being forced to submit to fingerprinting and DNA sequencing is not valid. In these instances, because it is not about the suspect giving the information to finding evidence, but providing evidence that is basically in plain sight. I.e. his DNA or fingerprints are not hidden but already there and can be taken (by force if necessary). The cops know where it is (in his cells/on his fingers). In contrast to this, if an object is hidden, the cops do not know where it is (obviously), so the emphasis is not on the object itself but on the information of where to find it.
Another reason why the comparison with a physical key just doesn't work is also a very simple one: If the suspect refuses to hand over the key to a safe for example and the cops think there is evidence inside, there is nothing easier than acquiring a search warrant which also involves opening that safe the old fashioned method in case of refudal to hand over the key = a strong drill and a cutting torch. So the question whether a suspect can be forced to hand over a physical key is really a moot point (and this example makes even more obvious the difference between the object and information about its location).


« Last Edit: January 07, 2008, 02:50:38 AM by KK »
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t'Sade

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Re: PGP and the 5th Amendment
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2008, 08:11:21 AM »

It came up because some lawmakers (not lawyer) came up with a law that requires everyone to hand over their encryption keys as part of pretty much any investigation process. So, if they find out someone encrypts their disk, the law says they have to hand over their keys to allow decryption. Obviously, someone felt this wasn't appropriate for their privacy.
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KK

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Re: PGP and the 5th Amendment
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2008, 02:38:31 PM »

Well, then it is obviously unconstitutional.
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