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Is Amanda Knox guilty?

Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are guilty!
Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are innocent!
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Author Topic: Amanda Knox Murder Trial  (Read 2741 times)

Ludovico

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Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« on: November 21, 2009, 12:13:08 PM »

I have been following this for quite a while - and it's finally going to the jury. I shudder what the verdict will be. What angers me is that they have held her without bail for two years - including 4 month recesses for summer break.

Does anyone else think she is being railroaded by a corrupt local DA?
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t'Sade

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2009, 05:31:08 PM »

Two years seems a little excessive. It is obviously they think Knox is guilty, but I'd wonder if they have proof. It seems like if they had it, they would have dragged it to court by now.

But, I think there will be a problem with just general perceptions. As Fluffy's mother believes, if they weren't guilty, they would be in prison. That belief can be a pretty powerful thing and will probably result in her being found guilty.

But, I agree, I don't think (given the publicity) that she really could get a fair trial, regardless of guilt.
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Ludovico

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2009, 09:56:05 AM »

Her defenders make a strong case she is the victim of an overzealous prosecutor, who, after having made a case based on flimsy evidence, wouldn't back down. Having convicted her in the news before the trial, in a very small town, they just don't want to admit they were wrong - partly due to culture.

She was advised by family to get out of Italy before her arrest, and had a few days in which she easily could have caught a train to Germany (family is there), and flown to the states. She didn't because she thought she could easily clear things up, and continue with school.  With the flimsy evidence, they never could have extradited her.

Amanda was very naive in trusting the Italian justice system.
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Ludovico

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2009, 10:20:38 AM »

If anyone is following, the defense finishes it's closing statements today, and it goes to the jury on Fri. They have a six person jury, and two judges. A verdict is expected the same day, or by Sat.

I'm completely convinced she is innocent, a victim of unlucky circumstances, Italian tabloid journalism, and a corrupt system.  It makes me sick to think this 22 year old girl, who has already lost 2 years of her life, may be sentenced to life in prison.
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t'Sade

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2009, 08:51:25 PM »

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/12/04/italian-jurors-convi.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+boingboing%2FiBag+%28Boing+Boing%29&utm_content=Google+Reader
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/05/amanda-knox-meredith-kercher-murder

Apparently, she was found guilty of murder.

"Trials in Italy proceed at a leisurely pace of, at most, two hearings a week and this one took eight months."

It is also pretty obvious that the Guardian and Boing Boing both really hate the results and are pretty much insulted by it. I can't say if she is right or wrong, I really can't, but it seems like a cruel thing to do to someone after dragging them along for two years.
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Ludovico

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 09:54:33 AM »

This is a tragedy!

A young girl has her life taken away by a corrupt system.

During the first few days after the murder, she behaved foolishly  probably out of immaturity, shock, and disorientation (during harsh interrogations). Combined with an Italian tabloid media that exploited her, and a corrupt prosecutor who completely fabricated a narrative (which he kept changing as one motive after another was discredited), Amanda did not stand a chance.

An innocent girl has lost her life because of her dream of studying in Italy.
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t'Sade

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 10:03:37 AM »

There is a reason why we have a "right to a speedy trial" in the US.

Though, I think any highly publicized case is going to end in tragedy for someone. I remember reading an article in Scientific America about the Miranda Rights. In many cases, you are actually asked to waive those rights and "just talk to the cops". If you don't fight it and you aren't guilty, then you have nothing to worry about, right?

The article goes on to talk about the 16-30 hour interrogation session that even innocent people will claim they did things, if anything to get out of them or because having people hammering on you with doubts, you start to believe that maybe you actually did it. In the US, there isn't any real guidelines for what is acceptable interrogation at a federal level, but some states do have limitations.

The case that inspired the article was about an Illinois one, and that state didn't have guidelines for acceptable interrogations.
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KK

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 06:09:54 PM »

Waiving Miranda rights - that's interesting. I wasn't aware that it is possible in the US to waive those rights and I am actually not sure if I understood that right, so pardon me perhaps asking a stupid question: You can waive your right to have a lawyer present and then, if you change your mind, you are not allowed anymore to have one?

Of course, if you are mirandized (sp?), decline having a lawyer present and talk to the cops... well, that's your choice - and perhaps not a clever one, but, well, nobody forced you to, right? Ok, obviously I am on the "opposite" side of the interrogations, so I may be biased. But if you even remotely think that what you might say can get you in trouble - the simplest thing to do is: Don't say anything without a lawyer present.
This is so basic advice that I really don't understand why people don't follow it.

And as far as overly long interrogations go... a lawyer is supposed to prevent that. Besides, at least in Germany it is illegal to be held by the police for more than the end of the next day without an arrest warrant signed by a judge. That's at most 48 hrs (if you're arrested at exactly midnight). And if there's a chance for an arrest warrant, then you really should have a lawyer, because arrest warrants are not issued lightly.

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Ludovico

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2009, 08:17:56 AM »

Ironically, Amanda's aunt in Germany urged that she go there right after the murder. Amanda wanted to clear things up, and continue her studies, so she stayed in Italy. Her failure to comprehend what was happening cost her this opportunity to escape a corrupt system.

If she was guilty, why did she stay? A lawyer present might have saved her life!
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KK

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2009, 11:16:37 AM »

I can't argue about the case, because I don't know enough specifics to know what is really going on and I am fairly sure that the media dont know either. At least in my experience reporters usually don't know enough about law that you could trust what they're reporting.
Also, in my experience the behaviour of people alone rarely allows a definite judgment about whether they're guilty or not.

If she was guilty she may have had plenty of reasons to stay, from thinking she wouldn't be considered guilty to thinking that if she left it would be even more reason to suspect her (and she'd likely be extradited from Germany back to Italy anyway). So the fact that she stayed is neither proof of her innocent nor of guilt. It is one of many ambivalent facts. Ambivalent because judging this fact completely depends on knowing what she was thinking. Which none of us do or ever will.

Anyway, another thing I learned from experience: Most people underestimate the police. There are very few perps who plan their crimes in minute detail. The criminal genius is a creation of fiction. People are sloppy, people cannot plan all the variables required to successfully commit a crime and never be caught. Today it would theoretically be possible to have a case solution rate of nearly 100% - if (you knew there'd be an if, right?) there were enough ressources and ways to follow every trail or piece of evidence. So, essentially the reasons why not every crimes gets solved are: not enough ressources, cops who mess up (they're only people, too) and trails that lead into other jurisdictions and get cold there.

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Ludovico

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2009, 09:12:32 AM »

It's also true that police and prosecutors, under public pressure to convict, create false motives and scenarios that they then try to sell to the jury.

Had Amanda gone to Germany, she would have flown to the U.S., and never been extradited, because they didn't have a prima facie case.

It was under harsh interrogation, in another language, that she became disoriented and made foolish statements which, although thrown out as evidence, were mentioned constantly during the trial.

She was convicted on this, and by the tabloid press, who by smearing her character, created a gut reaction in the jury, which wasn't sequested, and read the false and sensational headlines everyday.

Amanda did not stand a chance against a corrupt system
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der Wandersmann

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2009, 10:01:09 AM »

Tried to upload these to both Rapidshare and Mediafire, but all my attempts only resulted in little spinny-aroundy things spinning and spinning and spinning endlessly. At last I remembered where I got them, so I'm posting the URLs ... they are long, but worth watching.

Watch this one first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

And then this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE
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Ludovico

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2009, 09:57:00 AM »

They played well, but I will need to find the time to watch them. Thanks!. One more point, in the Italian system, with an 8 person jury, all it takes to convict is a 4 -4 tie !

You can go here if you want to help (and watch the full 20/20 episode - which covers the history of the case).

http://www.friendsofamanda.org/home_eng.html
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 09:59:41 AM by Ludovico »
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Ludovico

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2009, 09:43:38 AM »

Here is more info on the real killer, Rudy Guede - it is rather amazing!


The earlier conviction in a separate fast-track trial of Guede, an immigrant from Ivory Coast, is also likely to be examined in the Knox-Sollecito appeal. He gave the only eye-witness account of seeing the two lovers at the murder scene as it took place.

After the murder, Guede fled to Germany, where he was arrested two weeks later after being caught travelling on a train without a ticket.

Disturbingly, police failed to act against Guede, despite having clear evidence of him committing break-ins or burglaries – some of them armed with a knife – at least three times in the weeks leading to Meredith’s murder.

On September 27, 2007 – five weeks before the killing – Perugia bar tender Cristian Tramantano heard a noise downstairs in his home and found Guede wandering around with a large knife.

Tramantano recognised Guede from his work in a nightclub. There was a confrontation between the two, ending when Guede ran away.

On four occasions, Tramantano went to Perugia’s central police station to report the break-in, identify Guede as the culprit and to detail how the intruder was armed and threatened him. On each occasion, he was ignored and police refused to log his complaint.

The following weekend, there was a break-in at an English-speaking nursery school in Milan in which
€2,000 and a digital camera were stolen. The school owner, Maria Antoinette Salvadori del Prato, reported it to her local police station.

Three weeks later, on Saturday, October 27 – one week before the murder – Mrs Prato arrived at the school early in the morning with a locksmith to replace the front door, only to be confronted by Guede standing in the main school entrance.

Police were called and Guede questioned. A stolen laptop, digital camera and a ten-inch kitchen knife were found in his backpack.

But instead of being arrested and charged, Guede was merely escorted to Milan central railway station and placed on a train back to Perugia.

In the interim, on the weekend of October 13, there had been a break-in at the office of lawyers Paolo Brocchi and Luigi Palazzoli in which a first-floor window was smashed – similar to the break-in at Meredith’s house.

A computer and other items were stolen. They were later found in Guede’s possession but he was neither arrested nor charged.

This series of crimes and the absence of police action has led several of Knox’s defence team to believe that Guede was very likely a police informant being protected by someone within the force. If, as one associate of the defence team says, that is the case then it must be investigated, as that failure to act left Guede free to murder Meredith.

Knox’s accusation that Perugia bar owner Patrick Lumumba was the killer and her confession to being in the house at the time will also be examined.

It is now known that Knox was interrogated for nearly 53 hours over five days, part of the time without a lawyer present. Italian law is clear: a suspect must not be interrogated without a lawyer.

However, Knox’s interrogation fell into an uncertain area of the law because she went voluntarily to the police station and was initially interviewed as a potential witness, not a suspect.

At some point, she blamed Lumumba for the murder, adding that she had been present. At that time, Knox became a suspect and the interrogation should have been stopped. She should have been told of her rights and provided with a lawyer.

But nobody knows exactly when this happened because there is no video or audio recording of the entire interrogation – in spite of Italian legislation’s insistence upon the videotaping of any suspect’s interrogation.

According to her defence team, Knox was ‘brainwashed...pressured into making up a story to satisfy very demanding interrogators’.


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t'Sade

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Re: Amanda Knox Murder Trial
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2009, 11:08:28 AM »

They already prove that people will eventually start to doubt their actions or say something to end long-term interrogation. If anything, just to end it. The problem is, I suspect that no one really kept good records on any of the suspects.

And the Italian law system is much different than my own. I know that we have things in our laws because of legal systems in Europe, but I'm not really sure the full history behind them or why they were added (only so much I can learn).

One could hope that people will keep on being offended by this and maybe keep on dragging it out. If she gets out, even after a few years, it might be a success. But, I'd be terrified about this if I was in her position, completely and utterly terrified.
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